iya Steve,
(Appropriate deletions throughout to save BW)
> Like you, I also realize that a buck's a buck and people need to make a > living. I'm also scared about the future that I see -- a dead island, > a dead industry and a hungry BC.
This is a grave possibility. Not only is the forest industry in tough shape, mining and fishing isn't what it was in past years. Tourism will be our greatest source of international $$$ - that is if our province is still pleasing to the eye. Let's face the truth, "the writing on the wall" - the whole of planet earth is in trouble - man is the worst thing that has ever happened to it. I could post examples, but I haven't the time nor the desire to remind people of the attrocities that are so well displayed via the media. You have seen it all from the the oil waste of retreating Iraqui soldiers to the spills off of Scottland's shores to theories of nuclear warheads lost at the bottom of the ocean ... on ... and on ... and on ...
> I guess that you probably fear for your job in the face of what's going on in the logging industry.
I no longer log Steve, I'm quadriplegic (walking quad - miracle), but I have a good friend that I became acquainted with met while in G.F. Strong Rehabilitation Centre. He had received his injuries in a fashion that was similar to mine; A runaway log, a log that accidentally came loose from the "jaws" of a grapple yarder come into the cab of his truck while he was getting loaded. It mangled both of his legs below the knee - one of them has been amputated. What is he doing now? ... he is hauling logs from the exact area that these discussions are about. We are a tough and fearless breed - "Once a logger - always a logger."
What I did do for a period of about a year and a half after being injured was recruit qualified personnel for the forest industry. Logging companies would pay me a fee for providing them with _qualified_ personnel. They wanted to hire "motivated, self starters with good work histories". The service that I had provided for them saved them $$$ by eliminating the constant hire\fire problems that logging companies have to deal with. I would give the companies a guarantee that the man they hired from me was what they were looking for and that he would stay in their employ for a minimum period of time. If he quit or was fired, I had to replace him at no further charge. With there now being so many unemployed loggers to choose from, our previous client companies prefer to choose for themselves and avoid paying placement fees.
> then, that I'd seen almost no old-growth in my trip there. All I had > pictures of was burnt-out stumps. I got reall scared that that might be > all that my grandchildren might be able to find.
Cathedral Grove is about all that I recall seeing on this drive. Should the practices of the past continue, and perhaps if the practices that are being performed now are not up to the calibre that our Hon. Mr. Harcourt and crew - (see him and Sihota on the news last night contradicting each other regarding the present day forest practices?) stumps is all that there will be. I'd like to have both Harcourt and Sihota wearing caulk boots and working as chokermen - jumping at my commands. When I used to pull rigging and there was a "cull" that had been hired and no one could get any production out of him, they would put him on my side. I would run that sucker for all he was worth. Make or break, it didn't matter to me. Lotsa' college students that had never done a hard day's work in their life just couldn't cut it and would be out on the 2:00 PM plane after suffering through half a shift with me. The rigging would come back and I would race in, set both or three chokers before the cull even got into the vacinity of where the work was to be done. I would pass him on my way out of the turn and be standing in the clear waiting for him to get behind me so that I could go ahead on the turn. I would cuss his ass out, shame him to a degree that he just couldn't take and he would walk off the sidehill and catch a ride in with the next loaded truck or the area foreman.
Sometimes when us _capable loggers were feeling extra energetic, we could play a little ... ummm ... "game" that loggers have been known to play called RUN OR DIE. Scenario follows:
The rigging (chokers) come back into the bush. The rigging slinger blows the whistle, the rigging stops and he then blows the whistle to signal the operater to slack the rigging down onto the the logs so that they can be set. The crew then runs into the "turn" (the logs that are to be choked) leaving "the bug" (electronic signaling device) sitting on a stump in the clear. The first man to complete setting his choker runs out into the clear and signals the operator to yard the logs. Please note that this practice is frowned on by W.C.B. and employers alike, but talk about high production :-) Makes a name for you.
> My real fear, is that the logging industry has already done itself in -- > that we're basically out of trees, but it's just not going to be obvious > for a dozen years, or so. Sorta like a concussion victim, walking around > kinda fuzzy and waiting to keel over. I do hope I'm wrong.
Sadly ... I think you are right. Please note that I am a very optimistic person but your views are mine. Greed: cut, process, sell ... @#$% the environment. Pretty tough goin' tryin' to wipe your ass with a spotted owl or a muirilet {sp?
> I hope that someday, I'll be able to talk to you face to face. Friend to > friend. Until then, I wish you the best, and thank you for speaking from > your heart.
Perhaps. Thankyou\yer welcome :-)
> they want to replace you with a machine
Note that the Madill tension skidder that I was speaking of in my previous mail to Ken McVay required a crew of 9 to 11 men to operate effectively. In the very best of logging conditions, production would be between 5 and 7 off highway logging truck loads. The new Madill grapple yarders require a crew of 3 men (can get away with 2), have lights and generators that allow them to double shift them and can produce 7 to 11 loads per shift in good going. The tension skidder does a considerable a mount of less damage to the forest floor as far less roads are necessary and logs are rarely dragged to the loading site as they are with grapple yarders. The winners - the companies $$$ The losers - the environment, the unemployed logger, ... your grandchildren ... eventually EVERYONE. Please accept my apology for such a depressing @#$% post, this is the way I see it.
Regards
jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca (Jim Trumbull )Hiya Steve,"If it isn't hurting ... you aren't doing it right :-))) Just tell your physio - "Yank me, crank me, & don't bother to thank me."
Message samuel93:1580 - Read Delivery-date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 15:35:42 UTC-0700 Originator: jtrumbull%hostel.UUCP@oneb.UUCP Send-date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 15:14:08 UTC-0700 From: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> To: <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: samuel93:1580 <<>0L4Jac1w164w@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> Subject: In response to your post >Organization: Jim Trumbull & AssociatesYou wrote:
>There's going to be a LOT more of that going on. Apparently there was >a paper put out by (I believe) the head of the Forestry Alliance, where >he claimed that the industry was soon going to permanently remove >about 20,000 jobs. Some of this is due to mechanization,
You bet Steve ...see my last email regarding the production and cost in comparison between grapple yarders and tension skidders. G/Ys are $$$ makers and savers - environment and job killers.
>and some of >it is probably due to the fact that we're simply running out of trees >to cut. Many of the jobs being lost are because the logging companies >are not being held to their promise that they would take care of their >employees and the towns built around the logging industry.
I have seen the maps of the planned cuts for the north island (mostly Holberg area) a couple years ago. Most had already been cut - the areas scheduled to be cut were huge. There will be none left in a very short peiod of time - HONEST!
Now that the military base is gone from Holberg, the local bar is barely surviving with the few loggers (less than half of what there was in 1989) that can't be bothered to cook for themselves. As you may know, loggers in general are known for their fondness of liquor, and many will have $30.00 worth with their $12.00 dinner. This is why the bar, "The Scarlet Ibis" is still there. I recall seeing, on numerous occassions, loggers signing their checks and handing them to the Ibis's owner to cover their tab:-(
>This was >part of the promise of TFL's, but the Socred government removed that >requirement a few years ago.
Tsk, tsk, tsk ... Harcourt and crew are not doing anything better. Sickening!
>More importantly, the logging companies have also been allowed to use >logging methods and technologies that require fewer people. I've read >Mac Blo propoganda (directed at shareholders, I think) that pointed out >that clearcutting was designed to "maximize mechanization" (read - kill >jobs) -- especially in second-growth areas where robotic logging machines >can often be used (robotic loggers are still, to some extent being designed). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I don't know anything about these Steve, but grapple yarders with V12 Detroit deisels, twin turbochargers + a blower, generate over 750 hp. Put that through a high stall torque converter and a tranny with high\low range, nothing stops it. When logs get "hung up" on stumps, drop 'er into low and wind on 'er. If'n the line or the log doesn't break, it is in the landing in seconds and the grapple is sent back - litterally sreaming back to get another. Those Detroit deisels really howl :-) Just like music to a high production "line winder".
>but >the logging companies can make a facter buck by tearing the shit out of the >countryside and leaving the wildlife to fend for their own.
Exactly. I could not be more in agreement with you. Wildlife? ... Hah!
<<>deletions to save BW>
>I want to see a healthy logging industry, and I want to see a healthy >environment. I don't think that those two things conflict, but they >DO conflict with the way that the big companies are forcing the industry >to work. If we can force the government to change the rules to healthy >logging practices, then maybee we can save some of the industry.
Me too ... but it may be too late.
>Otherwise, the logging industry in BC is soon going to consist of a >couple of guys in cut & peel machines, feeding 3 foot wide trees >to an underpaid, overworked trucker who takes the trees to get >pulped and shipped to a foreign toilet-paper factory.
You know it Steve!
>A Twenty-eight foot tree, eh?? Twenty-eight feet WIDE??? Chances are your >grandchildren will figure you're telling a lie.
Not a word of a lie Steve. This was one monstrous tree. "Everyone" went out to have a look at that one.
>Too bad, isn't it?
Really sad :-(((
L8r, WALKIN\JIM
jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca (Jim Trumbull )Thanks for your reply."If it isn't hurting ... you aren't doing it right :-))) Just tell your physio - "Yank me, crank me, & don't bother to thank me."
Message samuel93:1582 - Sent Send-date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 17:15:20 UTC-0700 From: Stephen Samuel <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> To: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> In-Reply-To: samuel93:1580 Message-ID: samuel93:1582 1778*samuel@cs.ubc.ca Subject: Re: In response to your postAt first it was rather nice to have some collaberation for what I've been saying from somebody more "in the know". But then I started to cry. I'd really been hoping that it isn't really as bad as it looks.
Do you still have access to the maps you mention?? If so, would it be possible for me to get a copy of them? Even a pointer as to how I could get hold of them would be really useful.
Thanks again.
--
Stephen Samuel (604)876-0426 samuel@bcgreen.com Only the last fish is caught, the last river poisoned, the last tree is cut- Only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten (Cree prophesy)>Organization: Jim Trumbull & Associates
Message samuel93:1587 - Read Delivery-date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 10:37:31 UTC-0700 Originator: jtrumbull%hostel.UUCP@oneb.UUCP Send-date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 18:13:42 UTC-0700 From: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> To: Stephen Samuel <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> In-Reply-To: <<>1778*samuel@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: samuel93:1587 <<>JXBkac1w164w@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> Subject: Re: In response to your postHiya Steve
You wrote:
> Thanks for your reply.
You are most welcome :-)
> At first it was rather nice to have some collaberation for what I've been > saying from somebody more "in the know". But then I started to cry. I'd > really been hoping that it isn't really as bad as it looks.
'Fraid so Steve. I am not a pesimist by any means, but my optimism has been running very thin in regards to the future of the forest industry and the environment in BC.
> Do you still have access to the maps you mention??
Just moved recently Steve and they used to be on my computer room wall. I accidentally tore them when I removed them from the wall and discarded them. Sorry :-(
> If so, would it be > possible for me to get a copy of them? Even a pointer as to how I could > get hold of them would be really useful.
I am pretty sure that they came from the B.C. Forestry office that is on site in Holberg (north end of the island). A good buddy laid them on me just to let me see shere they were working in the next year. The forestry office is situated right next to the Western Forest Products office in Holberg. Perhaps a phone call or two would track them down for you!?
Note that on these maps I saw the areas marked that I had logged three years previously. I recall it being some really _choice_ yarding back then. Up on South East 390, big spruce for the most part, some nice hemlock. The way that the roads were laid out, excellent grapple yarding. I was working on the late shift on the grapple yarder with a really _HOT_ operator. On the other shift, the operator was green and there was a considerable amount of friction between the two of them. We came up to any area that was _EXTRA_ GOOD, and the operator on my shift didn't want to leave any of this _choice_ yarding for the other crew. The "proper" way to grapple yard is for the operator to yard all of the logs that he can see or _feel_ (a good operator gets a feel and a knack for reading the way the wood is laying) and after he can no longer get his grapple onto logs that may still be there, the hooktender (the fella that is out in the bush moving blocks and straps from "tailhold" (stump) to tailhold, has to walk up alongside where the lines run and "talk" the grapple onto the logs via walkie talkie. The operator who was an asshole said "Fuckit, change roads". This meant that the block was moved over onto new\fresh logs and the ones that were left behind were just that. I had an opportunity to walk through that area a year and a half later when hunting - wood everywhere :-( I don't know how WFP got away with that. Some kinda cocksucking\brown nosing amoungst the upper echelon!? It's all $$$! Assholes! > Thanks again.
Yer welcomwe again. :-)
> Only the last fish is caught, the last river poisoned, the last tree is cut- > Only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten (Cree prophesy)
Too true, ... too true :-(
L8r, WALKIN\JIM
jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca (Jim Trumbull ) "If it isn't hurting ... you aren't doing it right :-))) Just tell your physio - "Yank me, crank me, & don't bother to thank me."There's going to be a debate here between various people at UBC and some forestry supporter groups (including, apparently a bigwig from the forestry alliance. I'd like to use some of the E-mail you've sent me (especially the stuff about the Grapple-yarder vs Tension Skidder. and hand it to somebody in the debate to get a comment on.
Message samuel93:1610 - Sent Send-date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 12:02:06 UTC-0700 From: Stephen Samuel <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> To: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> In-Reply-To: samuel93:1565 Message-ID: samuel93:1610 1794*samuel@cs.ubc.ca Subject: Re: It's me, Jim Trumbull - "Anonymous, Retired Logger"Is this OK? (reply fast-- the debate is about to start)
--
Stephen Samuel (604)876-0426 samuel@bcgreen.com Only the last fish is caught, the last river poisoned, the last tree is cut- Only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten (Cree prophesy)>Organization: Jim Trumbull & Associates
Message samuel93:1613 - Read Delivery-date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 16:06:58 UTC-0700 Originator: jtrumbull%hostel.UUCP@oneb.UUCP Send-date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 15:16:10 UTC-0700 From: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> To: Stephen Samuel <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> In-Reply-To: <<>1794*samuel@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: samuel93:1613 <<>NPNPac1w164w@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> Subject: Re: It's me, Jim Trumbull - "Anonymous, Retired Logger"You wrote:
<<>deletions>
> Is this OK? (reply fast-- the debate is about to start)
Not a word of a lie or a half truth in it! Go ahead!!! :-)
L8r, WALKIN\JIM
jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca (Jim Trumbull )Thanks.. I did use your comments about the Grappls-yarder.. It was surprising how much I was shaking when I was speaking. People were impressed by some of what I said."If it isn't hurting ... you aren't doing it right :-))) Just tell your physio - "Yank me, crank me, & don't bother to thank me."
Message samuel93:1624 - Sent Send-date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 21:09:50 UTC-0700 From: Stephen Samuel <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> To: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> In-Reply-To: samuel93:1613 Message-ID: samuel93:1624 1805*samuel@cs.ubc.ca Subject: Re: It's me, Jim Trumbull - "Anonymous, Retired Logger"--
Stephen Samuel (604)876-0426 samuel@bcgreen.com Only the last fish is caught, the last river poisoned, the last tree is cut- Only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten (Cree prophesy)>Organization: Jim Trumbull & Associates
Message samuel93:1626 - Read Delivery-date: Sat, 2 Oct 1993 13:15:19 UTC-0700 Originator: jtrumbull%hostel.UUCP@oneb.UUCP Send-date: Sat, 2 Oct 1993 10:47:51 UTC-0700 From: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> To: Stephen Samuel <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> In-Reply-To: <<>1805*samuel@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: samuel93:1626 <<>gm1sac1w164w@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> Subject: Re: It's me, Jim Trumbull - "Anonymous, Retired Logger"Hiya Steve,
You wrote:
> Thanks.. I did use your comments about the Grappls-yarder.. > It was surprising how much I was shaking when I was speaking. ^^^^^^^:-) What for Steve? My guess is either that the issues being discussed are really close to a thin and poorly insulated nerve :), or possibly ... you need to use a technique that overcomes stage-fright ... shakiness,... try imagining that the whole audience is NAKED! :-)
WARNING, WARNING, WARNING ...
People that use this method must refrain from staring at an individual for any great length of time. <<>possible results being the speaker slapping his knee, holding his stomach in an effort to restrain abdominals, stomping a foot and gasping for breath ... maybe even an erection ... ooops, pardon me ... tsk, tsk>
> People were impressed by some > of what I said.
How's about a few more details on what took place?! I forget who was there but will look at your previous mail.
L8r, WALKIN\JIM
jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca (Jim Trumbull )I think that it was a bit of both... I've talked in front of people before (I've even done some theatre), but I was a bit self-concioius, and it IS something I'm a bit emotional about (It's hard to remain distant after watching 300 people you know, including close friends, get hauled away by police -- and then hearing about trials that the legal establishment is worried are a breach of rights.)."If it isn't hurting ... you aren't doing it right :-))) Just tell your physio - "Yank me, crank me, & don't bother to thank me."
Message samuel93:1629 - Sent Send-date: Sun, 3 Oct 1993 15:58:11 UTC-0700 From: Stephen Samuel <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> To: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> In-Reply-To: samuel93:1626 Message-ID: samuel93:1629 1807*samuel@cs.ubc.ca Subject: Re: It's me, Jim Trumbull - "Anonymous, Retired Logger"The people there were Amish Kimmins (Forrester ag UBC). Bristol Foster ( a biologist at salspring(?) Valerie Langer (friends of clayoqout) Glen Orist (a criminal lawyer, one of the people helping with the legal defence)
Amish Kimmins was pretty much apologistic for the forest industry.. I talked a bit about things like how TFLs have TWO sides, not one, and tenure, and the ability to withdraw it was supposed to get the companies to look beyond short term profits when they design their forestry while promising them reasonable security if they did well -- the carrot and the stick.. and maybe it's time to use the stick..
The other half was where I used your comments as an example of "Recent changes to forestry practices". Kimmins replied to it, and he seemed much more humble when he spoke.
I have a request for you-- I'm at the friends of Clayoquot right now (725-4218). I have a video camera, and I'm interviewing people about the issues in Clayoquot. I'd LOVE to get some time interviewing you, It may not be possible to do it this time thru (I'm leaving the camp tonight just after midnight). If you'd be willing to talk on camera, I'd love to have the excuse to meet you in person. If you'd be willing to do it at 2AM monday morning, I'd be willing to do it tonight, on my way home (I have to work on Monday).
I'll see if I can hunt down your phone number via information.. If you get this message almost immediately, call me at the Friends office and/or leave me a message. If I'm still here, I can answer more of your questions.
I'd also love to get some time to talk to some of your strongly pro-logging friends.. I want to get samples from both ends of the spectrum, as well as the moderates.
--
Stephen Samuel (604)876-0426 samuel@bcgreen.com Only the last fish is caught, the last river poisoned, the last tree is cut- Only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten (Cree prophesy)>Organization: Jim Trumbull & Associates
Message samuel93:1630 - Read Delivery-date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 3:10:39 UTC-0700 Originator: jtrumbull%hostel.UUCP@oneb.UUCP Send-date: Sun, 3 Oct 1993 20:07:49 UTC-0700 From: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> To: Stephen Samuel <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> In-Reply-To: <<>1807*samuel@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: samuel93:1630 <<>q8kVac1w164w@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> Subject: Re: It's me, Jim Trumbull - "Anonymous, Retired Logger"Hiya Steve,
> Amish Kimmins was pretty much apologistic for the forest industry.. > I talked a bit about things like how TFLs have TWO sides, not one, and > tenure, and the ability to withdraw it was supposed to get the companies > to look beyond short term profits when they design their forestry while > promising them reasonable security if they did well -- the carrot and the > stick.. and maybe it's time to use the stick..
:-)
> The other half was where I used your comments as an example of "Recent > changes to forestry practices". Kimmins replied to it, and he seemed > much more humble when he spoke.
Humble ala' Trumbull
> I have a request for you-- I'm at the friends of Clayoquot right now > (725-4218). I have a video camera, and I'm interviewing people about > the issues in Clayoquot. I'd LOVE to get some time interviewing you, > It may not be possible to do it this time thru (I'm leaving the camp > tonight just after midnight). If you'd be willing to talk on camera, > I'd love to have the excuse to meet you in person. If you'd be willing > to do it at 2AM monday morning, I'd be willing to do it tonight, on > my way home (I have to work on Monday).
Not tonite Steve. Would much rather see you in daylight hours.
> I'll see if I can hunt down your phone number via information.. If > you get this message almost immediately, call me at the Friends office > and/or leave me a message. If I'm still here, I can answer more of > your questions.
<<>scenario follows>: Jim laying motionless, except for the rise and fall of his chest as he breathes. The phone rings once, Jim is startled and awakens in a foul mood :-( Grrr! Steve? Steve who? Nope no Steve here ... goodnite:)
> I'd also love to get some time to talk to some of your strongly pro-logging > friends.. I want to get samples from both ends of the spectrum, as well > as the moderates.
To be quite honest with you Steve, I associate myself with them very rarely. I don't have much in common with them any more. Logging is what we used to share, but I am no longer interested as I don't have a good day's logging to sit down and talk about with the boys like I used to. Good memories :-) If I can get ahold of Dennis (faller), he might share a few thoughts with you also.
L8r, WALKIN\JIM
jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca (Jim Trumbull )Sounds great... As it was I didn't get your reply till now (I'm at home again, and about to go to work). It'd be great to see you in person.. I'll write later.. Stephen I just posted "A tear jerker posting", It has some good news from the union side of things.. We had a union rep in camp last night. I'll probably post more when I get a chance to review my tapes."If it isn't hurting ... you aren't doing it right :-))) Just tell your physio - "Yank me, crank me, & don't bother to thank me."
Message samuel93:1632 - Sent Send-date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:16:30 UTC-0700 From: Stephen Samuel <<>samuel@cs.ubc.ca> To: <<>jtrumbull@hostel.almanac.bc.ca> In-Reply-To: samuel93:1630 Message-ID: samuel93:1632 1808*samuel@cs.ubc.ca Subject: Re: It's me, Jim Trumbull - "Anonymous, Retired Logger"--
Stephen Samuel (604)876-0426 samuel@bcgreen.com Only the last fish is caught, the last river poisoned, the last tree is cut- Only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten (Cree prophesy)
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